Self Publishing & Stealing [Austin Kleon]
Download MP3the bestselling author of Steal Like An Artist pulls back the curtain on the realities of being an author.
Listen to Creative Elements: https://www.creativeelements.fm/austin-kleon/ (19 mins in)
Transcript
I was like 27, or 26. At the time, these kids were probably 22. You know, so it's like, what can I be stoked on these, you know, these students? It's just absurd. And they wanted a title for the talk. And I said, Oh, it's called. I saw I looked at my blog, I was like, what's the most interesting thing I've written recently, it's called How to Steal Like an Artist. That's what it's called. And I didn't have it written or anything. Like, that sounds good. But I had this blog post that was like, all these quotes about artists talking about stealing. And then I went on this walk with my wife, and I said, you know, what do I say to these people that aren't that much younger than me? And she said, Well, the best talk I ever heard at school, was this lady got up in front of our class, and she just had a list of 10 things that she wish she had known when she was a student. I said, that's great. I'll steal that. And that's where the talk came from. The talk went over well, but you know, me being a sort of old millennial, right on the edge of, you know, I was born in 83. So it's like, I have a little bit at digital native to me, but not terribly. So it's kind of like, well, what happens to all this material after I give this talk that no one recorded? And so I thought, well, it would make a really cool blog post. And that's really the thing I posted the How to Steal Like an Artist blog post. And that went viral. And this is 2011. And it became clear, like, immediately, because I started hearing from editors is like, this is your next book. Even though you put this book out, there was a poetry book that sold okay, but like, didn't really blow any doors down. But this is like the new one. So you get a second chance.
Transcript
I was like 27, or 26. At the time, these kids were probably 22. You know, so it's like, what can I be stoked on these, you know, these students? It's just absurd. And they wanted a title for the talk. And I said, Oh, it's called. I saw I looked at my blog, I was like, what's the most interesting thing I've written recently, it's called How to Steal Like an Artist. That's what it's called. And I didn't have it written or anything. Like, that sounds good. But I had this blog post that was like, all these quotes about artists talking about stealing. And then I went on this walk with my wife, and I said, you know, what do I say to these people that aren't that much younger than me? And she said, Well, the best talk I ever heard at school, was this lady got up in front of our class, and she just had a list of 10 things that she wish she had known when she was a student. I said, that's great. I'll steal that. And that's where the talk came from. The talk went over well, but you know, me being a sort of old millennial, right on the edge of, you know, I was born in 83. So it's like, I have a little bit at digital native to me, but not terribly. So it's kind of like, well, what happens to all this material after I give this talk that no one recorded? And so I thought, well, it would make a really cool blog post. And that's really the thing I posted the How to Steal Like an Artist blog post. And that went viral. And this is 2011. And it became clear, like, immediately, because I started hearing from editors is like, this is your next book. Even though you put this book out, there was a poetry book that sold okay, but like, didn't really blow any doors down. But this is like the new one. So you get a second chance.
Jay Clouse 18:08
This idea of being a second chance, was this the language that was told to you by the publisher?
This idea of being a second chance, was this the language that was told to you by the publisher?
Austin Kleon 18:13
No, no, no, no, no, that was just in the back of my head. You know, for the publisher, it's all. Publishers just think, is it going to be a good book or not? You know, I mean, it's a funny thing, my agent would hate it if I told this story, but which makes it even more fun to tell. But you know, Ted, my agent, there was a point after newspaper blackout came out that I wrote him an email and I said, I just realized that I really need an agent. You know, like, it would be good to have an agent, I realized that now. And he sent me this email back that was pleasant, but he was like, Look, kid, I make money by selling books. So when you got you better hope this book that you do on your own sells well. And if you got another idea for a book, then come see me. Right. So that was like, right after Newspaper Blackout came out? Well, I came to him when it was time to sell steal like an artist to publishers. So it was never the second but it almost feels like I don't know, like a bands like Nirvana puts out Bleach and then never minds the like, the major label, even though that doesn't really work because my publisher workman's independent, but it did feel like okay, this is the pop shot. This is like, this is the chance to do a book that might have a bigger audience than then the poetry book.
No, no, no, no, no, that was just in the back of my head. You know, for the publisher, it's all. Publishers just think, is it going to be a good book or not? You know, I mean, it's a funny thing, my agent would hate it if I told this story, but which makes it even more fun to tell. But you know, Ted, my agent, there was a point after newspaper blackout came out that I wrote him an email and I said, I just realized that I really need an agent. You know, like, it would be good to have an agent, I realized that now. And he sent me this email back that was pleasant, but he was like, Look, kid, I make money by selling books. So when you got you better hope this book that you do on your own sells well. And if you got another idea for a book, then come see me. Right. So that was like, right after Newspaper Blackout came out? Well, I came to him when it was time to sell steal like an artist to publishers. So it was never the second but it almost feels like I don't know, like a bands like Nirvana puts out Bleach and then never minds the like, the major label, even though that doesn't really work because my publisher workman's independent, but it did feel like okay, this is the pop shot. This is like, this is the chance to do a book that might have a bigger audience than then the poetry book.
Jay Clouse 19:32
Well, I kind of blew past this. You know, a lot of people come on the show. They've self published books, some of them have gone through a publisher and they talk about it being like a miserably difficult experience to get to the point where someone says, Okay, we'll publish your book. Yeah, you publish Newspaper Blackout through a publisher. How did that happen?
Well, I kind of blew past this. You know, a lot of people come on the show. They've self published books, some of them have gone through a publisher and they talk about it being like a miserably difficult experience to get to the point where someone says, Okay, we'll publish your book. Yeah, you publish Newspaper Blackout through a publisher. How did that happen?
Austin Kleon 19:48
That was just an editor that was a year younger than me. Harper Perennial, Amy Kaplan, who she's got a different name now. She said, Have you ever thought about a book I said, hell yeah, I thought about a book, let's do it, they sent me a contract, which, you know, really, in hindsight, I should have never signed. But you know, I, my, my mother in law's a lawyer, and she looked over it and it seemed fine. You know, it's like, cuz, you know, it's a poetry book. And the stakes seem very low. But I, my feeling was always with books, when people want to book from you, they'll they'll tell you, you know that that's always how I felt about it was like, it's much easier to be wanted than to try to sell something fresh or new. Now, you know, every writer now has the ability to grow an audience before they ever publish a book. But the thing is, is that you want an audience, if you want to self publish, you got to have an audience. And if you want to publish with a publisher, you need to have an audience. You know, it's kind of like, your, I think the thing that I tell people now is, it's like, it's both terrifying, and freeing the fact that you always run your own show. And it's always in your core, you are always the one doing the work. You know, I've been a published professional author for a decade now. And nobody ever comes to you and says, We're gonna do it for your kid, don't worry, we're gonna make your stuff that just doesn't happen. I mean, maybe it happens to like, a pop singer, something, you know, but it's never going to happen. Every person you see, that's like a big deal. There's just all this work that you don't see that happened before that, where they were making things happen for themselves. You know, I thought when I was younger, I'm such a genius. I'm so talented, someone will just come out of the woodwork and say bold. Here you go, kid. You know, I just I just had that stupid, wishful thinking. But you know, my agent has three things that he tells writers that I think are really, really, it's really, really good advice, I try to pass on, one, get famous first. And that sounds horrible, and terrible. But really what he's talking fame is just more people knowing you than, you know, people. So fame can be a tiny fame too. So that's just getting known in your field, like get known for something that's, I would actually change it from getting famous, I'd say get known for something, you know, first, Ted second. My second piece of advice is all publishing is self publishing. So whether you're self publishing, or whether you're going with the big five or Big Four, now, publisher, you are the one that cares the most about your work. And you're always going to be the one that pushes it and sells it and gets out in the world the best. And then three, the thing that Ted says that I think is even more true today than it was when he was saying 10 years ago is you're really CEO of your own multimedia empire to only think in terms of books is very limiting now, because you have these tools available to you now where you can just do whatever I mean, you've got the access to media now is stunning, you know, so it really becomes about what you want to do. But I always thought those three pieces of advice were really good. But I think the major thing is like don't wait on anybody. No one's going to come and night you, you know, no one's going to get out the sword and put it on both shoulders and say I knight thee you're in the club, you know, and by the time it feels like you're in the club, you don't need to be in the club. You know what I mean? So it's just so I'm always with people. I always think that young people need to get sort of the best of punk rock. earliest they can not they're like, oh Sal out there spit on us punk rock, but the real sort of the kind of punk rock that Michael Azur ad writes about in our band could be your life. These bands that got in the van, and they toured and they built audiences city by city, and they got addresses and built their mailing list. You know, that kind of great American. You know, it's the best of America punk to me, like, the band on the road. That's like, sort of the best of the American dream, you know, like building your audience slowly.
That was just an editor that was a year younger than me. Harper Perennial, Amy Kaplan, who she's got a different name now. She said, Have you ever thought about a book I said, hell yeah, I thought about a book, let's do it, they sent me a contract, which, you know, really, in hindsight, I should have never signed. But you know, I, my, my mother in law's a lawyer, and she looked over it and it seemed fine. You know, it's like, cuz, you know, it's a poetry book. And the stakes seem very low. But I, my feeling was always with books, when people want to book from you, they'll they'll tell you, you know that that's always how I felt about it was like, it's much easier to be wanted than to try to sell something fresh or new. Now, you know, every writer now has the ability to grow an audience before they ever publish a book. But the thing is, is that you want an audience, if you want to self publish, you got to have an audience. And if you want to publish with a publisher, you need to have an audience. You know, it's kind of like, your, I think the thing that I tell people now is, it's like, it's both terrifying, and freeing the fact that you always run your own show. And it's always in your core, you are always the one doing the work. You know, I've been a published professional author for a decade now. And nobody ever comes to you and says, We're gonna do it for your kid, don't worry, we're gonna make your stuff that just doesn't happen. I mean, maybe it happens to like, a pop singer, something, you know, but it's never going to happen. Every person you see, that's like a big deal. There's just all this work that you don't see that happened before that, where they were making things happen for themselves. You know, I thought when I was younger, I'm such a genius. I'm so talented, someone will just come out of the woodwork and say bold. Here you go, kid. You know, I just I just had that stupid, wishful thinking. But you know, my agent has three things that he tells writers that I think are really, really, it's really, really good advice, I try to pass on, one, get famous first. And that sounds horrible, and terrible. But really what he's talking fame is just more people knowing you than, you know, people. So fame can be a tiny fame too. So that's just getting known in your field, like get known for something that's, I would actually change it from getting famous, I'd say get known for something, you know, first, Ted second. My second piece of advice is all publishing is self publishing. So whether you're self publishing, or whether you're going with the big five or Big Four, now, publisher, you are the one that cares the most about your work. And you're always going to be the one that pushes it and sells it and gets out in the world the best. And then three, the thing that Ted says that I think is even more true today than it was when he was saying 10 years ago is you're really CEO of your own multimedia empire to only think in terms of books is very limiting now, because you have these tools available to you now where you can just do whatever I mean, you've got the access to media now is stunning, you know, so it really becomes about what you want to do. But I always thought those three pieces of advice were really good. But I think the major thing is like don't wait on anybody. No one's going to come and night you, you know, no one's going to get out the sword and put it on both shoulders and say I knight thee you're in the club, you know, and by the time it feels like you're in the club, you don't need to be in the club. You know what I mean? So it's just so I'm always with people. I always think that young people need to get sort of the best of punk rock. earliest they can not they're like, oh Sal out there spit on us punk rock, but the real sort of the kind of punk rock that Michael Azur ad writes about in our band could be your life. These bands that got in the van, and they toured and they built audiences city by city, and they got addresses and built their mailing list. You know, that kind of great American. You know, it's the best of America punk to me, like, the band on the road. That's like, sort of the best of the American dream, you know, like building your audience slowly.
Jay Clouse 24:26
Yeah. I feel like there's like a, there's a lot of analogs, from music to all the online greeter stuff we talked about today, because they were just out there doing it going on the road, building this mailing list, every time they went to the city, it just got a little bit bigger. And that's not that different than what we're doing now. It's just instead of cities you have maybe internet communities, maybe you have these small pockets of culture. It's really about the same.
Yeah. I feel like there's like a, there's a lot of analogs, from music to all the online greeter stuff we talked about today, because they were just out there doing it going on the road, building this mailing list, every time they went to the city, it just got a little bit bigger. And that's not that different than what we're doing now. It's just instead of cities you have maybe internet communities, maybe you have these small pockets of culture. It's really about the same.
Austin Kleon 24:52
One newsletter subscriber at a time. Somebody tells their friend or his tweets that or whatever, you know, that musics interesting for me, I'm sort of a, I'm sort of a want to be, you know, music is what got me through my teenage years, I realized very early on, it wasn't going to be the lifestyle for me I wasn't going to be okay with just like being on the road and trying to entertain people, which is hilarious now because half of my job is getting up on the stage and performing for people. But music has always been an influence. And music is interesting, because musicians are always the kind of canaries in the coal mine. As far as media goes, anything bad that's going to happen will happen to musicians first. And it was true of streaming. It was well it was true of digital. It was true of Napster and all that. It was true of streaming. And it was trueThe pandemic. Musicians are really the artists, they're sort of, I can't think of another art form that's really more on the edge of whatever the world is doing. And they'll do it to them first.
One newsletter subscriber at a time. Somebody tells their friend or his tweets that or whatever, you know, that musics interesting for me, I'm sort of a, I'm sort of a want to be, you know, music is what got me through my teenage years, I realized very early on, it wasn't going to be the lifestyle for me I wasn't going to be okay with just like being on the road and trying to entertain people, which is hilarious now because half of my job is getting up on the stage and performing for people. But music has always been an influence. And music is interesting, because musicians are always the kind of canaries in the coal mine. As far as media goes, anything bad that's going to happen will happen to musicians first. And it was true of streaming. It was well it was true of digital. It was true of Napster and all that. It was true of streaming. And it was trueThe pandemic. Musicians are really the artists, they're sort of, I can't think of another art form that's really more on the edge of whatever the world is doing. And they'll do it to them first.
Jay Clouse 26:00
Yeah, yeah. I thought when we started to see holograms of Tupac at Coachella, I was like, this is this is next.
Yeah, yeah. I thought when we started to see holograms of Tupac at Coachella, I was like, this is this is next.
Austin Kleon 26:08
Well isTupac. It's Gemini season right now. No one this layer, but you know, yeah, it's true. It's like, the indignities that are put upon the passed away musician.
Well isTupac. It's Gemini season right now. No one this layer, but you know, yeah, it's true. It's like, the indignities that are put upon the passed away musician.
Jay Clouse 26:19
Your three rules from Ted, if you believe them to be true, which it sounds like you do that number two rule of everybody is self publishing. What is the litmus test now for someone to decide if they should go with a traditional publisher? If they have the opportunity?
Your three rules from Ted, if you believe them to be true, which it sounds like you do that number two rule of everybody is self publishing. What is the litmus test now for someone to decide if they should go with a traditional publisher? If they have the opportunity?
Austin Kleon 26:34
Oh, great question. I think it has a lot to do with business goals. It just depends. It depends completely on the person depends on what kind of stuff you're writing. You know, for me, my books do really well by the cash register, at the paper source or the, you know, Urban Outfitters, or wherever. Now, these books have taken a hit during the pandemic, because nobody's in person anymore. Yeah, so those books take a little bit of a hit. But, you know, like, I'm reading a book right now on how to take better notes. And I forget the guy's name. But it's like, that's a very niche.
Oh, great question. I think it has a lot to do with business goals. It just depends. It depends completely on the person depends on what kind of stuff you're writing. You know, for me, my books do really well by the cash register, at the paper source or the, you know, Urban Outfitters, or wherever. Now, these books have taken a hit during the pandemic, because nobody's in person anymore. Yeah, so those books take a little bit of a hit. But, you know, like, I'm reading a book right now on how to take better notes. And I forget the guy's name. But it's like, that's a very niche.
Austin Kleon 27:18
Thing that most publishers probably like, take better notes. What is the you know, whatever, I'm sure this guy's probably sold a million copies, he's probably made of fortune. The thing about self publishing that I try to remind people is that it exists on a very wide economic spectrum. So like, for example, my two self publishing heroes are on one side, a guy named John Porcellino. And on the other side is a guy named Edward Tufte. Now John Porcellino has been doing this scene called King-Cat for 30 years, I think King-Cat since like, 19, you can tell I'm not good. It's late afternoon. My math skills are bad. But John's been doing this scene for 30 years at least it's it's it's one of the greatest American comics. And in my opinion, John's never gotten rich off of it. He, you know, started when he's a kid, it's so got that punk buddha, energy to it. But john, now I think he, he just started a Patreon. And I think he's just starting to be able to save enough to have a reasonable, like, lower middle class. I mean, this is just from what I've seen of him and seen of his work. He's just starting to be able to like kind of have a decent living through Patreon and his subscribers to King-Cat. So that's like one side of the economic spectrum. On the other side is someone like Edward Tufte. Edward Tufte. He was statistician at Yale. Nobody wants to publish his book called The Visual Display of Quantitative Information. Can you imagine no one wanted to publish that book. So he self published it out of his garage, took out a second mortgage on his house. Ed sold like 1.5 million copies of these books, they retail for $40. So you do the math, even if there's half I mean, this guy's made Yeah, he's made $40 $50 million. If you do the math off of of self publishing these books and he towards like the Grateful Dead, you know, he's one of those guys. He goes around with a sound system. He sets up in a Hilton ballroom, 500 people come and they sell, you know, 300 bucks ahead, and everybody gets books and he just goes around does that and makes a killing too you know, meanwhile, John's at like a comic con, hand selling King-Cat, you know, so like, both these dudes to me are our punk. You know, like they're both. They have that DIY punk spirit that the Grateful Dead had to You know, they're doing it, they're just doing it themselves, you know. But yeah, I don't have a huge opinion. I mean, the publisher thing, to me, it's still about having the muscle of distribution and getting it everywhere. And of course, the publisher takes a little bit of the risk with the printing and stuff, but that with on demand and stuff, it's changing a lot. I mean, it'll be interesting to see where you know, what happens with my next book, you know, whether I do some self publishing experiments or not, it's still worth it for me to go with a major publisher. But I have friends that say, I'm stupid, you know, I have friends who say, why would why at this point, wouldn't you self publish something, and sell it for 20 bucks and keep 10 and make a killing. But for me, it's about just being patient. I'm planning on doing this for a very long time. And so I'm just sort of patient and to be perfectly honest, I'm not very business savvy. I mean, I'm number savvy. But I'm not really interested in being a business person, which has always been a problem for me. You know, I didn't get into this. Like, if I wanted to make money, I would have gone to business school.
Thing that most publishers probably like, take better notes. What is the you know, whatever, I'm sure this guy's probably sold a million copies, he's probably made of fortune. The thing about self publishing that I try to remind people is that it exists on a very wide economic spectrum. So like, for example, my two self publishing heroes are on one side, a guy named John Porcellino. And on the other side is a guy named Edward Tufte. Now John Porcellino has been doing this scene called King-Cat for 30 years, I think King-Cat since like, 19, you can tell I'm not good. It's late afternoon. My math skills are bad. But John's been doing this scene for 30 years at least it's it's it's one of the greatest American comics. And in my opinion, John's never gotten rich off of it. He, you know, started when he's a kid, it's so got that punk buddha, energy to it. But john, now I think he, he just started a Patreon. And I think he's just starting to be able to save enough to have a reasonable, like, lower middle class. I mean, this is just from what I've seen of him and seen of his work. He's just starting to be able to like kind of have a decent living through Patreon and his subscribers to King-Cat. So that's like one side of the economic spectrum. On the other side is someone like Edward Tufte. Edward Tufte. He was statistician at Yale. Nobody wants to publish his book called The Visual Display of Quantitative Information. Can you imagine no one wanted to publish that book. So he self published it out of his garage, took out a second mortgage on his house. Ed sold like 1.5 million copies of these books, they retail for $40. So you do the math, even if there's half I mean, this guy's made Yeah, he's made $40 $50 million. If you do the math off of of self publishing these books and he towards like the Grateful Dead, you know, he's one of those guys. He goes around with a sound system. He sets up in a Hilton ballroom, 500 people come and they sell, you know, 300 bucks ahead, and everybody gets books and he just goes around does that and makes a killing too you know, meanwhile, John's at like a comic con, hand selling King-Cat, you know, so like, both these dudes to me are our punk. You know, like they're both. They have that DIY punk spirit that the Grateful Dead had to You know, they're doing it, they're just doing it themselves, you know. But yeah, I don't have a huge opinion. I mean, the publisher thing, to me, it's still about having the muscle of distribution and getting it everywhere. And of course, the publisher takes a little bit of the risk with the printing and stuff, but that with on demand and stuff, it's changing a lot. I mean, it'll be interesting to see where you know, what happens with my next book, you know, whether I do some self publishing experiments or not, it's still worth it for me to go with a major publisher. But I have friends that say, I'm stupid, you know, I have friends who say, why would why at this point, wouldn't you self publish something, and sell it for 20 bucks and keep 10 and make a killing. But for me, it's about just being patient. I'm planning on doing this for a very long time. And so I'm just sort of patient and to be perfectly honest, I'm not very business savvy. I mean, I'm number savvy. But I'm not really interested in being a business person, which has always been a problem for me. You know, I didn't get into this. Like, if I wanted to make money, I would have gone to business school.
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