Why Ethereum Lost The Plot [Su Zhu]

The Crypto Villain of the Year explains his thinking.

Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_2fDTuh5aU (start at 25min mark)
Crypto villain of the year https://cryptobriefing.com/2021-review-the-top-10-crypto-villains-year/


i would be curious to learn in

what sense has ether over optimized for

being money so what at what points did

it make a trade-off like a conscience

trade-off to say


we designed the chain to be better money

and worse as let's say an execution



i think a good broad way to understand

it is if you look at antonio the founder

of do idx's tweets about it afterward

and he he said you know

the ethereum user experience on on layer

one has basically not even 10xed over

five years

um and at that time the roadmap

was very much to to figure out how to

cater to users and developers right um

and and so i think just like if you just

zoom out that far it's pretty easy to

see that we're we're in a very different

place today

on ethereum than it was uh

a couple years ago and i think the

another easy way to see this is just

with d5 itself right where if you look

at the d5 that's kind of really taken

off and done well it's been crosstrained

it's been non-ethereum right so you know

luna versus snx but then also you know


sort of projects on avalanche versus

projects on ethereum the you know the

same exact project but they'll do better

on avalanche um and then you know you

you you kind of get a sense that um

i think ethereum rightfully says that

they're the bedrock or kind of the uh

birthplace of defy innovation right but

what that also means is that if that's


main claim to to to um

sort of power that that that becomes


it becomes quite nostalgic like in a way

right uh where

um what about the new users or what

about the new developers where do they

go and and you know what we're seeing is

that new developers are just multi-evm

right so they

deploy where the users are because their

goal is to

have their product be used you know so

an example is we back tranches which is


quite quite uh novel mechanism for doing

risk sharing across um longs and shorts

and it's got one of the highest tbls in

d5 right but they started off on bsc and

the the founders love ethereum but they


said if i launched on l1

uh there's no way and i'm not gonna

launch on matic because

if i'm gonna launch on another chain

anyways i might as well launch where the

actual users are

right so

uh okay

this is what kind of work this is kind

of what we're seeing on the app side and

then you look at the performance of d5

coins too right you know when we have

that part let's take note with the

performance let's let's stick with the

sort of the tech for a second because

yeah sure sure so


if we i think if we look at blockchains


actually first principles

it's really just you know it's a shared

database where anyone can can verify or

where anybody can see that the the

computation that was done whether it's a

transfer or a smart contract execution

that was done with

integrity so that was that was done

correctly right

and you can have various


of such uh

database basically so being the most

centralized would be just binance right

the centralized exchange nobody has any

insight into their database but it has a

lot of reputation at stake um so you

just trust it to you know perform all

the other updates correctly pretty much

and on the other extreme

you have something like bitcoin and

ethereum where they say oh we throttle

the network um really hard to sort of

keep um

this verification cost this cost for

people to actually do the accounting

themselves to to to to walk through

every step that was done and say oh i

can i can verify

without making any trust assumptions

that all of this computation was done


right and in the middle between these

two extremes centralized exchange and

the completely decentralized blockchain

you have a pretty wide trade of space

right and um that's where you find bsc

that's where you find avalanche and

solana at some points across these

spectrums right


sort of what i'm wondering is

i mean

are these other chains really gonna you


develop in in in any other way i mean

than ethereum and bitcoin so their

databases are always so yeah

i guess my answer would be they already

have and they will continue

because they are attracting all the new

users i think this is the just the

reality of the space right and i think

you know when i told you that half of

metamask users are bsc users and it

under shocked you

it's because a lot of

you know a lot of ether ogs and biblical

energies they don't use

chains because they don't need that

money right like you don't need to make

a thousand dollars you don't need to

make ten thousand dollars right you're

too wealthy to care

but that says more about you than it

says about other people right so

it's kind of my point which is that um i

i find that a lot of ethiopians they're

in the mindset now where they're like

i'm already rich and you have to

understand why what i've done is so good

and also what i why what i'm preserving

is so valuable and valuable

as it may

um you have given very few outlets for

new users to come and participate

in what you've done and and so you know

that's the reality of the space and and

you know having matic is not is not an

answer right because if you have matic

then they say what is the difference

between matic and any other l1 right and

then and then you open up that door and


yeah of course of course there's none

right so so i think that that's kind of

the reality of the space and i agree

with you a hundred percent on you know

there is a

you know a decentralization trade-off uh

between each of these and i think what

the novel sort of

understanding that i have or or that um

i think the market has as well is that


where ethereum is on the trade-off scale




it is optimized for a world

that um

it's struggling to maintain its network

effect for evm itself

where evm developers are immediately

deploying to every chain

and then users are using where

they find it most convenient


i would say in april or march i would

have said that ether itself uh will

benefit a lot from this multi evm i

believe i said that in a thesis um and

he did and i think in part ether has

right it has outperformed bitcoin quite

a bit uh since then because ether

benefits from being able to be ported

around on evm just much easier right so

you can bring your you know you can

bring your ether across different

bridges you can use it as collateral

here and there

and so it has

definitely benefited from that but it's

also underperformed

other layer ones massively and and

the the reason why i do say performance

is important is because

the this is also the incentive for

people to get involved right so you know

if you look at the d5 projects on

ethereum you know where they have

uh pretty much only gone down in dollars

even uh over the past year i mean if

someone had told you at the time we did

that podcast where we predicted device

coins would enter the top 20 that they

would actually all be down in dollars

you would you you would have said you're

insane right



but it's happened and i think and i see

that i think they have performed not

that bad since then they are up in

dollars definitely but down


but i think a lot of them are actually

down in dollars if i remember correctly

and and and so that's something that i

don't think

people are i mean

privately i've spoken a lot of people

and and and they you know they they they

say what those reasons are

but i think that um publicly it's

something that

is a bit taboo to talk about right

because it has

it you have to admit a lot of kind of

things and and and so i think

i mean my diagnosis would be a few

things right i i think one is that

the early ether builders they were very

committed to ethereum as a network

and so

where the founders dilemma kind of plays

in is that if you already own a lot of

ether and then it's gone up 20x

you're already wealthy right

so so once you're already wealthy

your incentive to build also starts

going down right because

what is the

incentive to build at that point and and

and that we've seen a lot in the

ethereum device space i think um

i think

on the on the idea of

you know going cross-chain and acquiring

users i think that this is a

this is very much a knife fight right

this is very much a fight uh to see you

know which builders are the most

aggressive at creating products for new

users um and creating experiences for

new users and i find it interesting too

that like when i speak to some of these

ethiopians you know some are very good

at going cross-chain and and

using them but but a lot of

like others their mentality is like i

i'm too rich to have to do that

i'm too wealthy like i don't need to

right um so

this is i think the big divide really in

this space which is that it's to the

point where

um ether can no longer ethereum can no

longer claim to have all the innovations

right like now you actually see the

opposite where synthetics are trying to

copy what luna's done with you know

ecosystem airdrops and multiple projects

on it

and you know it's we're we're kind of

seeing that reverse copying on a number

of projects now as well and so i think


there's an arrogance to the ethereum

community similar as there was an

arrogance of the bitcoin community um

and i actually think that you'll see

this arrogance play out in almost every

community um not in a fatalist way but

just as a as a product of founders

dilemma like if people already become

billionaires people already become you

know worth a lot of


their their basic worldview becomes how

do i perpetuate this idea as opposed to

um how do i compete in the open market

so i think

that that kind of reality um

is is the main reason why


i expect d5 building and and d5 to to do

better on newer chains because the

builders there are just hungrier and

they're also trying to create

applications for a million users or 10

million users

but i think what you're missing is that

you're taking kind of an objectivist

approach right you're kind of saying

this must be the solution that is the

most technologically valid and hence

you're only interested in that well be

that as it may

um you know

these were the kind of criticisms put on

solana in the early days and what we've

seen is that solano's actually attracted

a whole huge amount of grassroots

developers and huge amounts of

application interest right i would say

the last 20 of our application bets


15 plus of them are non-ethereum

mainly because we prefer to do best



we can see it get to a million users

um and

i think for a lot of the other funds

even the funds that were quite against


i see them now trying to get into these

rounds too and so it's just something

that while i hear you on you know your

vision of where the technology should be

and how how it looks

i do also see that

the way that the industry is going is

much more pragmatic which is to say i

want to onboard the users now

um and

that's that's the

that's the goal



and so i just think that

there needs to be a broad okay

put it this way i think there needs to

be a broad respect

from the ethereum community for

uh users i don't i don't think there's

quite that respect for users and i and

you can argue that there doesn't need to

be because ethereum is on this mission

to scale uh in this uh robust way but

we're getting into bitcoin lightning

network type of logic now too right


be that as it may

you're you're free to do what you wish


you do run some risks of losing network

effects um and and so i think

that that's kind of what i would say

about this i mean i think fundamentally

it's it's it's talking on two different

planes right or it's talking past each

other where the set of priors are just


um so so my set of priors is to say

okay we can invest in bitcoin and if

there are stores of value that's fine

um and we speculate on when we buy them

and when we sell them and the global

demand for user and the the global

demand for crypto monies right


at the same time we also


feel that applications on ethereum have

really suffered from uh you know

optimistic role of not being competitive

and and then later on uh you know newer

scaling not coming out um and you know

the world we live in today is very

different from the world uh we imagined

when ethereum device was sort of at

their highs and and so uh seeing that

world i'm an introspective person so i

look at that and and i ask myself why

did it fail right what happened

and the reasons that i'm seeing or the

kind of the realities that i believe i

am perceiving

are that well first of all the builders

are actually better on these other

chains because they have chosen those

other chains because they want to reach

users so i see that with dokon and luna

i see this uh with a few other projects

and this i think is actually the

anti-culture case for ethereum which is

that it actually is unable to provide a

space for these type of builders i

remember during a clubhouse where andre

chronos he said i think this was in like

march i can't remember exactly when but

he said like if you're an evm builder

today you need to go to bsc immediately

right and then you know at that time

like then then a whole host of people



bsc but

i think that this is

this is the future um

of smart contracts application space and

users and and so from my point of view


i do have a bit of regret and nostalgia

for the d5 times and i wish that it

would have gone better uh but i think

that um

you know the reason why i was so

triggered by kane is because he kind of

um is kind of the is kind of the

ultimate example of sort of you know an

ethogee who did very well holding eth

basically um and then the project itself

you know has kind of

not been as

you know and it's not something where

i'm like shaming builders or this or

that but he's the one who says you know

you know anyone who's not building on

ethereum layer two is like you know

we're gonna keep track of all your names

and then you know i'm not going to

welcome you back to community i mean

this is dangerous stuff i think um and

this is stuff where

yeah um i don't believe in it so


i think that um at the end of the day um

the same problems that happened to

bitcoin maximus are happening to

ethereum maximus and the problem for

ethereum is that while it matters less

for bitcoin because you don't do

anything with bitcoin it matters more

for ethereum because you actually have

to do things on ethereum and so if

builders are starting to go to other

chains which i see them doing this is a

matter of debate that i have with some

other funds but i do see builders going

to other chains um especially solana

especially avalanche


then the floodgates are very open on

that and you won't we won't be able to

claim in two years that all the

innovation is on ethereum right and once

you lose that

uh then really what you have left is you

can say that the evm uh

enshrines eth as the holy asset which i

think is happening um and that um it

shares a store value case with bitcoin

and that and that can be fine as it is

right that

that that really can be the end game of

eth and um

and it can do well but i don't think

that um

i don't think that this is something



that that alternate layer ones are sort

of um

discredited for their approach because i

it's kind of fascinating almost like as

a fractal but i kind of see like eth as

being what original bitcoin wanted to be

in some ways right which is sort of um

you know having nfts and having um

having um defy and these kind of things

and then i see like alt layer ones

trying to be what ethereum is trying to

be which is like

you know uh yeah the reaching a building

i think where vitalik said that um

if there's like

f what is it what did he say if there's


five cents

he said bitcoin has five cents


yeah i mean

stuff like that of course makes you look

very bad in the future that's a given

um yeah so so i mean and

and and i think it's look like i still

own more ethan pretty much i still own

more ether than pretty much anybody i

know so it's not something where but i

think this is i mean this is also to me

this is also like a warning sign but i

mean vitalik

is a very smart guy


he already yeah first like the bitcoin

cash people fell on their face making

the claim that you can guarantee some

kind of low cost environment without


sacrificing all decentralization then

vitalik made the same statement he fell

on his face and now i see for me it's

just it's just just groundhog day i see

the same i see a new class of people

repeat the same the the same things that

already the bitcoin cash people have

failed at

vitalik has failed that they are not

going to succeed in my opinion i think

they are going to fail for the same

reasons and that's sort of what makes me

a bit frustrated about seeing these

arguments because it's not

yes i'm taking

um like a technologist stand stands on


where i say yeah i'm better at

evaluating um

this than the market i can say this is

gonna fail for you know technological

reasons this is gonna run into its

scaling limits and at some point also

the narratives around it are going to

collapse when the fees go up and they

have no credible scaling roadmap so um

but to me this this just feels like i've

seen the story like play out more than

once in the past

i think the i think the the the sort of

shortest rebuttal i would give to that

is to say

just look at the network growth rates on

the other networks and then say

let's assume that they run into scaling

problems and let's assume that they

solve them in the way that um

uh would be maybe not acceptable to

ethereum people and certainly not

acceptable to bitcoin people i mean keep

in mind too a lot of ethereum's

decentralization trade-offs are

completely unacceptable to bitcoin

people right and so i so so i think that

then you you're very much back in the

fractal that i'm talking about which is

that um you know ethereum people making

the same arguments

against other chains that bitcoin people

make against that

make against ethereum right and

i guess what i would say is that um

i do see these fighting product market

fit and i do see these teams being

at least more motivated to onboard users


and and so i guess

what i'm

what i'm warning or not warning but what

i'm kind of predicting is that um


that all layer ones will continue to do

very very well

and um i also see this in the web 2

investors that i speak with right


when when the web 2 investors come to

crypto i think some of them you know

they they gravitate toward the uh

toward the ethereum vision um

but then as they do they start to see

like okay well

how fast is this network growing because

because i'm investing in network effects

right how fast they're growing and then

they see that all the other chains are

having way faster network effects and

then they're saying okay well what is

the reason for this and and so

if the reason is that ethereum is

waiting for its own scaling


it starts to sound like bitcoin right it

starts to sound a lot like like bitcoin


um then they're like okay well

i clearly need a hedge because these are

already outperforming either by a lot

and on top of that there's you know very

credible uh activity happening i

understand that either people say it's

not decentralized but i also understand

that big people say ether is not

decentralized you see what i'm saying

there right so so that that's kind of

what i'm predicting basically and and i

think that um

i think that

for me like i kind of had the thesis

uh fortunately relatively early

uh during the bear market that i think

all all layer ones are yeah deeply

undervalued because these are real teams

building stuff and i was fortunate

enough to you know so so like polka dot


uh avalanche

near um

oh i mean we pretty much said at that

time you know pretty much any alt layer

one that is doing


that is shipping code uh

is is gonna is just

is incredibly undervalued by the market

i think um richard we had on our podcast

at the acm he had basically that thesis

and he helped us kind of see it which is


um for the same reasons that ethereum

grew very quickly these chains also will

grow very quickly because the

penetration of smart contract

users and and and just you know

applications is a zero of the main



it's it's it's a world where we live in


um you know just to give an example

right like

taizo tazos just did a great deal with

ubisoft where they're gonna give

something like 10 million wallets to

ubisoft users and then holding fts in

them so

i mean i can see a world where chains

can do well just being

used in one country right and then and


going from there and and so i guess what

i'm saying is like the world is a very

very big place and i see layer ones

doing very different approaches to biz

dev very different approaches to users

um and

i think that this is healthy actually

for broader crypto it it does hurt a bit

of um

ethereum dominance like i think ethereum

would be

much closer to flipping bitcoin today if

ethereum had managed to find you know if

it basically what we think of as the

scaling road map in 2025 if it had been

achieved by today right


but um be that

you know being that we're in the world

we are in today


see sort of more of a hybrid bitcoin and

ether will share a store value case

and then i see

a multiple you know a multitude of all

their ones and i and i think that i mean

not to say that this is good or bad but

just to say this is i think just the

reality why do you so ethereum has also

of course gone through periods of

extreme growth um

and back in the day we used to use this

as um an investment case for ethereum

over bitcoin right we saw that yeah

bitcoin was valued much higher but

ethereum growth in in any relevant

metric was just leaving bitcoin

completely in the dust there were more

i think what i realized

i think what i realized looking back is

that we were asking the wrong question

we were asking the uh we were asking the

wrong question which is the og question

which is should i own more ethereum


but that's actually the wrong question


my question to you would have been why

why do you think that the growth that

these newer chains are seeing is going

to be more sticky than the growth that

ethereum has seen

uh well

what i would say is that their growth

has already been much faster than

bitcoin and ethereum and their growth

can continue to be much faster


one they don't have technical debt

bitcoin has technical debt right

ethereum has huge technical debt these

new ones they don't have technical debt

in part because they're more centralized

but also in part because they're newer


um so

you know they're already proof of stake

well for ether it will be very hard to

go proof of stake it will take months

and months right and there will be a lot

of questions as we go into it and and

and so technical debt is one reason also

i think um the spirit of community is

another right where


the the concept of getting in on the

ground floor is very attractive to

people and you know if you look at

either today like

it doesn't offer

the opportunities i think that um it did

when people uh were around 2019. so even

if you look at like you know talking

about airdrops right like all

all this stuff is for if you were a user

in 2019 as far as i'm concerned like ens

yeah you registered it in 2019 you know

using some of these products okay like

some of them late 2020 but they're all

kind of like

i mean i would posit that it's all the

same two thousand users

two thousand to five thousand uh you

know that that that are basically

benefiting from this and and so that's

kind of the big challenge i think uh

which is uh ethereum's growth of users

on l1 has basically gone to zero right

um because of the fees and

i can accept the argument that that's

fine because we'll do rollups but

i would then also

argue that if you assume that's true

then the growth rates on altair ones

will be very fast because there is a

demand for people to get involved in

crypto and this is where they will go

and so

for me it's trivial that the growth rate

of user counts and activity on other

chains will be faster than on ethereum

um it's a

broader question what will outpace the

other in dollars today uh from where we

are here because obviously we are

already up 1000x on solana we're already

up you know hundreds of access on these

other coins and the these are all kinds

of um

you know we're we're trying to get to

questions of like what is a fair

percentage of ethereum market cap these

things should be


i think when it comes to user accounts

when it comes to activity levels when it

comes to new builders uh new passionate

builders who want to build billion

dollar applications

i very much see these going to solana

starkware avalanche

and a few others and

i think that that's just natural um so i

do think that when there is um

more opportunities to

deploy on l2 i think they'll also do so

but i think that ethereum has lost that

network effect of being able to say all

innovators come to my chain and join my

community um i didn't realize it quite

early enough i think if i had i would

have just sold all my ether for salon on

avalanche but you know be that as it may

i was comparing either too much to

bitcoin and you know so i suffered that

fate along with you basically um you

know as part of the sort of the og crowd

now that you know debates bitcoin versus

ether all day right you know

and you know i've met young guys like

retail guys like they're like 50 sold 50

abax from a dollar

you know and these guys are just like

why do you even talk about bitcoin and

ether like what what is the point and

and so like there is that perspective

that i have to remind myself of each

time because each generation each crypto

wave has brought in

uh new people right and their

perspective is very different from yours

and mine

and you know you know speaking of these

kind of guys

i do i am sometimes struck by like are

we the boomers you know yes um

i think i would be

i mean

i i i would agree that somebody who

comes in today

won't use bitcoin in in ethiopia and

they shouldn't because for the reasons

that we talked about but that doesn't

mean that they are any more right in the

long term i think if you've only been

here for half a cycle


i think there's definitely the risk of

sort of over overvaluing what is new and

what you know over what is long-term


i would say that at the end of the day

i'm i'm a pragmatist i'm i have no

uh ideological reason to support

ethereum i would say i'm pretty far from

from being like an ideologue


i think that in terms of its roadmap

it's actually it's going to be cheaper

and better for a user and an application

builder to use

um a rollup that

posts you know proofs to ethereum

then these alternate layer ones if if

they are just a layer one so they can

have the same role the same um the same

sharding road map and then i think

it's sort of a fair game um but

i think that this approach is probably

going to win out over the you know


layer one approach

um and i say that because i believe in

it for

you know that it's like pragmatically

the the best approach and not because i

think it's somehow more

i don't know that it's like for moral

reasons or whatever right i mean i get

what we were saying but i guess my point

is that

for like for for me as someone who

invests prolifically in applications


i see the strongest applications being


on non-ethereum these days and that's

something that i would have been

absolutely if you had told me this a

year ago i i would have said absolutely

no way

zero chance all the innovation i see is

on ethereum and now all the application

innovation i see is not on ethereum and

and so this is just

for me that's my perspective on it and

that makes me sad in a way because it's

different from what i thought it would

be and it's different from what i hoped

it would be

um and so i think that

i think that that's kind of where

where the

the the the biggest fear for me in

crypto is that if we get to a world

where the end game is then

you don't need to have any

like like you you get to the most

centralized chain and then that is the

thing that you know i mean i'm kind of

seeing this like and it scares me with

some of these web 2 guys and they're

saying like well you know what you don't

even need crypto you just have tokens

the whole point is tokens uh once you

have tokens uh you can incentivize

everybody you incentivize your users you

can get rid of the blockchain

right yeah yeah just give tokens and

this is i mean kobe was 20 mothers a bit

as well and this this is what really

scares me because if we don't if we

don't make reasonably credible

applications that that scales users you

you do some run some risks that like

um you know we're just talking about

tokens in five years that run in actual

databases um

so so i i come from that perspective but

i mean

i mean i think at the end of the day

like it's it's it's the points on both

sides are really well understood now i

think you know the market will decide

the new users will decide the new

builders will decide and and and i think

it's not even worth debating honestly

because i think it's more about

prognostication right

so people will step their chips the way

they want to set them and and then

that's it

yeah i completely agree i i i'm a pretty

strong believer in the thesis that

fast forward five years

and people will be using applications

they will not be using blockchains they

would be going directly to applications

like they go to their bank their broker

whatever their super app

and they will be using these

applications and they will know that

it's non-custodial

but they won't know

on what chain it runs um

and they they won't have to they don't

have to care and then it's purely

a matter of what chain um can get the


yeah properties to to build us into

users um and there won't be any sort of

yeah i mean any reason to favor one over

the other for any other reason and um

yeah that's that's that's definitely

also the approach that i'm taking

and um if it's true that other chants

can capture

better builders and can retain them in

the long term then i definitely think

that these chains are in a good position

personally i don't

i don't see that right now i think


it's very attractive for a new builder

to build on new chains but it's also


these chains tend to be empty empty here

and this is not going to sustain so

there's some amount of short-termism

and they tend to be big incentives right

so between building on ethereum and

building on avalanche where i know that

ava labs have is you know paying out


they are dumping like avex incentives on

on any application that builds there of

course that's a huge bribe for me as an

application builder to favor their chain

but i also know

that this is not

long-term sustainable right so at some


the this this sort of incentivized


will taper off and then what matters is

the actual technical trade-offs well i

think the why well i think the the the

biggest counter-argument to what you

said is that

it's already been wrong for many months

now right where


you know from the vision that we would

have seen a year ago to now it's already

been wrong and then so i think the

question is then

at what point will that vision be

correct and

i think the answer that most ethereum

people give is that the it will be

correct when we finally have l2 scaling

that is competitive with uh the

experience the user experience on layer



that is what they say but what they're


is that the new users don't have an

allegiance to ether the way that you do



even when that is out there is no

guarantee that the new user will then

say i value the technical trade-off of

ethereum i'm going to go there

that i think

is the biggest point and i would also

make the point that starkware does not

belong to ethereum

right starcover belongs to itself

and they very much do not plan to pay

rent to ethereum


this is something too where i would say


arguably all l2s will not want to pay

rent to ethereum

in my opinion they will also end up

becoming like l1s

so so that that kind of is my biggest

kind of point which is that the

execution layer the execution

environment that

provides the best experience for


uh whether incentivized or not uh

once it has those and once it has a

flywheel of users coming in

that's incredibly powerful and i've seen

that with bsc and binance where you know

even with a weaker technical roadmap

they've been able to capture half of all

i mean they just have by far the most

users of any chain it's not even close

right and that's why all the new gamefly

companies are launching their games on

on bsc because that's just where the

users are um so

i think that it's just something where i

find the ethereum rhetoric to be

more out of touch with where i see

applications and users going than ever

before and this is something that i

think is is honestly irrelevant to the

average eatholder because like i said i

think each value crew now is not coming

from that stuff it's coming from people

buying bitcoin and ether together as

part of a monetary basket and so

i get why they're also out of touch with

it because they're because their goals

are different and their you know kind of

ideas are different but

if we're talking about um

where users are and where they're going

where builders are going i do find it

very facile to say well as soon as we

get our layer twos up then they're all

gonna come back i i personally not a

believer in that because i don't think

that that's um

i it's not how i've seen the world play


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